Philosophy in Education

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Permalink Reply by Jason Neal on February 25, 2011 at 9:40am

Grace, thanks so much for starting this discussion.  I think you raise some interesting questions.  I don't know why philosophy tends to be ignored in secondary education.  It wasn't taught with any focus in my high school either, at least not when I was there (20+ years ago).  I think it's unfortunate, because it seems many of philosophy's core questions—what is the nature of existence? what is reality? what is knowledge? what is goodness and what is evil?—are ones that young people are not only interested in, but perhaps most able to examine with fresh eyes.  (Many of the greatest 19th and 20th century philosophers were already amazingly accomplished well before they were 30 years old—e.g. Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Wittgenstein, Russell, Saussure and others.)

 

Perhaps the reason is because studying philosophy has traditionally involved not only the examination of questions about "existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language," as you mentioned, but also the examination of what philosophers have already said about those subjects throughout history.  Learning about philosophy is, I think, much like learning about math, in that one framework of ideas tends to be built upon another framework of ideas, which in turn is built upon another, and so on.  Picking up the seminal works of, say, 20th century philosophy without a really good understanding of what came before (going perhaps all the way back to Socrates) is akin to trying to learn Calculus with no comprehension of algebra, geometry or trig.  So maybe the sheer scope and complexity makes it too difficult to incorporate into an already full curriculum.

 

That said, I agree that high school students ought to be exposed to the challenges of philosophy, and that teachers (and school systems, and society in general) should value learning for learning's sake. I think it's exhilarating to study questions that are ultimately beyond our ability to answer definitively; in a way, that very process reveals something about what it is to be human.

 

I'll quibble a bit with your assertion that schools should integrate philosophy into the curriculum to "give our education a purpose."  First, I don't think everyone would agree that the concerns of philosophy are all that purposeful.  There's nothing wrong with valuing the practical (and do most people really need to examine "the nature of reality" in order to happily go about their lives?).  Also, I just really think that the onus is on the student to find purpose in education.  The complex job of educators is to impart knowledge—and to cultivate and encourage a desire for learning—but I think each student ultimately has to decide whether or not there's value in the process.  That's my sense of it, anyway.

 

Thanks again.  I hope more people chime in here.

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Permalink Reply by Grace Hein on February 26, 2011 at 7:21pm

Jason~

Do you think the concerns of philosophy are purposeful?

I understand exactly what you mean in that educators should not be the ones to decide if there's value for the student in education- it's something we figure out on our own. But if the question isn't even being asked, are they going to have an answer for its value, if they even think it has value? Of course, you ask that question, more should follow.

You said- "do most people really need to examine "the nature of reality" in order to happily go about their lives?"- and I want to know- If you don't, can you really be happy? I do know that ignorance can be bliss, and everyone knows that not thinking about such things is certainly easier than the mental exertion of questioning and examining "the nature of reality", but in reality, who has not thought of these things?

Do you not think about these things?

Oh, and are you still quibbling? :)

Thank you so much for responding!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Neal on February 28, 2011 at 8:20am

Good, challenging questions, Grace. This is my third attempt to write what I hope will be a sensible response; I found that the more I tried to pin down this concept of "purpose" in my own mind, the more slippery it became.  But I suppose that's what makes it an invigorating topic of discussion.  "What is the purpose of philosophy" is itself something of a philosophical question.

 

I can readily say that the concerns of philosophy are very interesting to me.  But I feel like it should take more than that to consider them purposeful.  I can't say I've really done anything with them, and I certainly haven't concluded anything as a result of having considered them (philosophy, at least in my experience, has very little to do with resolution).  But that's all fine by me.  That's not my expectation going in, which is maybe why I hit a snag with your original imperative—"Give our education a purpose" (i.e. by allowing high school students to study, as a group, philosophical questions)—because I just couldn't imagine how that study would've given my education a purpose.  The terms just don't resonate with me—but, hey, I don't deny that they resonate with you.  I think they do, and that, too, is what makes this interesting.

 

In your original post you made the important distinction between asking and studying.  And while I agree that most everybody has asked themselves philosophical questions about the nature and meaning of existence, knowledge, the mind, etc., I really don't think many people have truly studied those questions.  I can think of several people in my own family who I'm quite sure have not, but I think I know them well enough to know they're happy, at least by any conventional standard.  Maybe they're all blissfully ignorant, but I wonder—and I'm not being rhetorical here; I really wonder—how exactly they might've benefited by a more dutiful study and examination of philosophical questions.  I can imagine how I might've benefited, but that seems very personal and idiosyncratic, and I don't presume it to be true for others.

 

I'm interested to know your thoughts on the purpose of philosophy.  I wonder about it on two levels: the personal and the public.  In what ways do you find the study of philosophical questions purposeful to you, and do you think you can generalize that purposefulness?  Would you assert there are ways in which that study is (or would be) purposeful to virtually everyone, in all walks of life?

 

P.S.— For a good overview, I'd recommend T.Z. Lavine's From Socrates to Sartre: The Philosophic Quest.

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Permalink Reply by Kim Anderson on February 25, 2011 at 11:22pm

Grace. Wow! So many great thoughts and questions. Many, many years ago I was a very dissatisfied high school student. I figured that while I couldn't control what was being taught in my high school, I could read whatever I wanted. And I started reading philosophy, starting with Socrates (I should have started with earlier works but I didn't know about them). The greatest freedom in the world is being able to learn whatever you want whenever you want. That's what reading randomly, naively, often stupidly, gave me. Much of what I read I didn't understand at the time. But I knew I could go back, or not. No one was testing me. There were no grades. I was learning, as you say, for "the sheer enjoyment of education." I think you're wise to already sense that there are all sorts of reasons for and ways of gaining knowledge and proficiency. Sometimes, like doing piano scales, we have to drill ourselves in things that aren't necessarily immediately fulfilling, in order to reach a level where we can reap the benefits of knowledge (being able to finally play that Mozart sonata.)

That said, philosophical discussion should be a part of your high school education. I know there are teachers out there doing it brilliantly, and I hope you are blessed with a few of them. Do you find that in some of your classes (Literature, history, civics, art) there are discussions that bring up philosophical questions? Is it possible for you to bring these kinds of questions up in class discussions? I'd love to know.

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Permalink Reply by Grace Hein on February 26, 2011 at 6:53pm

Kim~

My honors English class is the only one that would come close to pondering such a beautiful thing, and we have not. It is interesting to think of though, my classmates in that group would produce quite a lively discussion. . .  Maybe I can segue into it sometime. :) It would be possible, but I think it would be shut down rather quickly- especially since there's a plethora of indefinite answers. In general I'd assume most teachers don't like those.

And the dissatisfied high school you sounds a lot like me. Reading (alongside sketching, writing poetry,and playing the piano) brings the greatest pleasure. At least for me. What philosophical book would you (if you could, please) suggest for me to read? Are some better than others?

Thank you!

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Permalink Reply by Ken Egan on February 26, 2011 at 10:23pm

If you don't mind, I'll jump in with one comment and one suggested reading.  As a 54-year-old man, I think about these questions all the time.  Why are we here?  What sustains us?  How should I act toward others and the world?  One book I've found useful in this search is "Existentialism for Dummies"--a helpful account of a movement in modern philosophy (beginning in the mid-19th century and coming up to our own time) that teaches we have the freedom and responsibility to define meaning and purpose for ourselves.  This book is written by a good friend, Chris Panza, and it can be a gateway into many other philosophical discussions.  Here's a link to the Amazon page that tells more: http://amzn.to/ewtBRI

 

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Permalink Reply by Kim Anderson on February 28, 2011 at 9:31pm

Grace, thank you so much for responding to me. Your question lead me to my bookshelf, and I began opening up books and finding ones I'd put my name and date in when I was around your age. They may not work for you, but here goes: The Creators by Daniel J. Boorstin (who was the Librarian of Congress for many many years) is a wonderful overview of the great thinkers and artists through history. Either/Or by Soren Kierkegaard, which is difficult but focused, at least for me when I was 18 on the questions that seemed essential. All That is Solid Melts Into Air by Marshall Berman, which talks about how the modern age is a major break with traditional cultural concepts. Growing Up Absurd by Paul Goodman. I remember loving that one. There are so very many, but those were what I was reading when I was a little older--and not nearly as smart--as you. Now, what would you think if we had some speakers and discussion leaders who could come to your school to talk about philosophy in everyday life? I hope you respond to all that's going on here. Jason's so right, many people probably don't feel the urge to know philosophy in order to act and interact in a satisfying way. For me, thinking myself into knots about what was "right" when there often isn't a "right" answer, understanding what was moral, investigating what great minds had to say about the mind/body/soul issue were essential. Weigh back in!

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Permalink Reply by Grace Hein on February 28, 2011 at 11:18pm

 

Kim ~ More thanks to you for keeping interest! Philosophy in everyday life- and speakers that come to schools. Interesting idea. I personally think that the more intimate the subject can be, as in smaller groups better quality, the better. I think to get philosophy started as an everyday thing in high school and having speakers to set it in motion would be great. But I don't like things that are impersonal, and large assemblies have never meshed with me- even if I'm the one up in front of everybody- they don't know me and I know they don't care. ( I'm going to assume you are well acquainted with J.D. Salinger's Catcher In the Rye) I'd say i have a Holden side of me, which hates that stuff- it seems phony. If, however, it was set as a sort of introduction i suppose, then it could work. To talk about the points of philosophy and the depth of it- to get students interested- not a bad idea at all. But then the real thick and gritty, or maybe not thick but thin lines of what is and isn't, reality and dreams, what we should and shouldn't question (okay,the list is endless)- the things ponderous and cohesive or clashing- would be in the actual classroom setting. The discussions! Actually, I'll just start a one person after-school club of philosophy. . .

Thanks so very much for the book suggestions- when I have a chance I'll find them and definitely read them. 

And to Jason~ I understand what you mean in saying that some people really don't think of these things- and life goes on. What are the benefits, and are they merited by everyone who not only asks but studies such things? And what is my response? Maybe you caught me, for one of the greatest things of philosophy is to find it on your own- i mean, the desire to ask these questions and think critically. Of course, I hate myself later for doing it- being such an impractical use of my time. But I really want everyone to have been exposed to the idea so that they have the chance to benefit. Maybe Kim's idea of speakers is better than mine (of being painfully thrown in the middle of it). Jason, you are right in that it does become personal- all of the heated questions eventually come into conversation or thought- the controversial ones, and a lot of students would not see any purpose for philosophy in their education. In fact, I think most student would abhor the idea. I've always thought that things happen for a reason, including everything. Yes, a hyperbole. Maybe philosophy is something everyone will run into, and I shouldn't feel bad for the people who haven't wasted their time on these things as I have. Maybe everyone has a chance to greet Philosophy, and most choose to ignore him. If that is the case, then I'm out of a game. :) No, but then I wouldn't have to be ignorantly adamant about something people have refused once before.

So my purpose for philosophy? Well, why not? It doesn't hurt, it makes you think critically about yourself and provides a different perspective. And I know it is beneficial- and can be to everyone- changing as a person for the better can't be harmful, can it? That is to say if philosophy were studied. But to just grasp at its morphing edges and ask some simply interesting questions- you're right, what good does that do?

Thanks to you both, and to Ken, for the questions and suggestions!

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Permalink Reply by Bruce H. Wendt on March 6, 2011 at 8:55pm

Grace,

I was perplexed reading your earlier post that you couldn't discuss in a literature class (and so was my wife the biology professor reading over my shoulder); lively give and take on ideas should be the bedrock of literature and history classes.  Those of us who think we know history learned long ago that many questions have yet to be answered and that is why class is so delightful as we explore together the "whys" of history.

To add to your growing reading list, I would suggest two authors.  Niall Ferguson and Sean Wilentz, while not philosophers in the classical sense of a Socrates, they do a fine job in synthesizing large swaths of history.

Your school librarian, I bet, would be more than happy to help you find materials.  Ours regularly purchases books that students (and teachers) request.

good luck,

Bruce

 

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Permalink Reply by Grace Hein on March 6, 2011 at 10:38pm

Dr. Wendt~    Thanks for adding to my list! The bigger the better! (at least in this case)

Did i say we couldn't discuss? If I said that then oops! , but I thought I only said we haven't discussed philosophy in my English class.We definitely have discussions and they're brilliant, but philosophy isn't a role. Also, If it were a literature class, don't you think I should be able to write a term paper on literature? In this English class for my term paper (which we are not allowed to write on literature), I find myself writing on art therapy, partly because I never found a better topic than that on the list, and mostly because I wanted to write a paper on literature or poetry more than anything. If we actually had humanities and philosophy integrated into education, there'd be much more meaning to the assignments we students find useless. I am writing this term paper simply to learn how to put things into a format, just another jumping hoop process in this college-bound education. This is not to say i have not learned about art therapy, i find it mildly interesting since I am an artist and my brother is autistic, but i regard the whole thing as a mere exercise on whether or not i procrastinate and if I have good organizational skills. (And truth be told, I will go to great lengths to avoid doing things I don't take interest in, especially when I feel at this age I should already be honing in on a craft that i can use to better benefit the world-thinking of things on a large scale rather than this, and also, i am horrible when it comes to organization.)  What will I gain from this assignment? Another tally on my board of "things I've done to get to college that don't relate to me, who I want to be, or my future career". Why do I feel so much of school is like this? Will college be different? I know sometimes we have to do things we don't want to- and usually that thing builds character. But will this, really? I am very doubtful. . .

Okay, i'll stop asking silly questions. Back to you- I've heard of the wonderful discussions you have in your history class. It's a shame I'm missing them for a history class in which i am watching Swing Kids for the second time (we saw it in world history last year) and doing meaningless worksheets that connect in no way to my life. History shouldn't be like that. It should connect with me- learn from the past to have a better future. The past has everything to do with the present, and when we take it into consideration, it should help our future. To be honest I'm not learning, I'm attempting to memorize so that later I may forget. Boy, I wish I were in your class.

Anyway, thank you so much for the suggestions, I wish I had more time to be in the library!

Oh, and sorry that this was more about my term paper than philosophy. You see, I would rather be exploring philosophy and the wealth of knowledge, but this impending doom of a failing term paper is more prevalent in my mind! :(  I wonder what a philosopher would say on education and the "jumping through hoops" bit. . . I'm sure I'll find out soon enough if I read the right books...

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Permalink Reply by Grace Hein on March 31, 2011 at 5:36pm

I see now why there has not been much said on philosphy- it gets very sticky. Firstly, it questions what we believe in. For most it is a religion based on faith, others simply sciences and facts. Upon reading the first chapters of the Creators by Daniel Boorstin, graciously lent to me by Dr. Wendt, I found that questioning the beginning of time and such things can be disturbing to think about. When we ask not only how where things came from but that ever present question- why, it's very perplexing. Either way we are baffled by God or science. Either side says there are no concrete answers concerning the why's (and how?). On religious terms (which I suppose is more concrete?), questioning the impetus for creation in God is pointless, since his knowledge surpasses human understanding (and it's nonessential to our existence?). In science, even the answer of time and lots of complexities doesn't quite explain much- things such as evolution from the big bang theory (or other scientific theories)- it never answers the origin of the species, I would like to point out. It merely encompasses what happens after time and things came into existence. Then there is existentialism, but see- these are all beliefs. Out of nothing comes nothing? Of course this can easily be segued into logic, its fallacies, and the things that we try and prove- which comes again to belief. What proof is needed unless it is believed in- by some and refuted by others? Are perceptions made into truths? Are truths made into perceptions? What is truth? Can truth mantain justice? What is justice? Who determines what is justifiable? What are the definite rights and wrongs? Biblically- the law is written on every man's heart. Instinctively a man knows his sins because of guilt, but that doesn't make it any easier to escape sin. Scientifically speaking- i don't know. Maybe someone can help me out- someone not biased by religion? I know that science and religion work in tandem, and that if one is only scientific or at least non-religious, it does not mean that they don't have morals or think that things are meaningless. But where would the meaning be? Also, if things have a beginning, logically (which may be flawed?) there should be an ending. Afterlife?

 I love this. Reading about it. Writing about it. Thinking about it. So, the dichotomy of good and evil- must one prevail or is it like star wars, and there just must be a "balance in the force"? Religion and science, in tandem- but we split them into a dichotomy. What about the people who try and sit on the fence with thier pacifist-cop-out-answer of coexist- concerning religions and war and life? Does anybody else care about the finer details that seem to get missed when people try and "coexist"? I'm not saying we should all declare war on eachother, but there is the option of agreeing to disagree. *gasp* Which is hard for us humans, we try and make everything our idea of perfect. (Anybody else think of Hitler?) Which brings up another slew of questions on perfection and beauty and more philosophy.

Too many questions. A lot of red herrings. Anybody want to tackle these things? The mental wrestle can be exhausting, but please comment- on any of the above (and possibly random) questions!!   i love to see what other people think, wether through religious, scientific, historical, or rose-colored lenses- thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Kim Anderson on March 31, 2011 at 9:50pm

Oh my Grace, what a huge treasure of questions you bring up!!! I'm happy you got back on the Roundtable and happy you're reading Boorstein. He was a great thinking man, one I had the honor of meeting when he was quite old. I couldn't ask him questions then, and boy did I want to, but I was able to thank him for his work and tell him what it meant to me. 

I'll just pounce on a few things you said that caught me--the dichotomy between science and religion. Is this a given? has it always been true? It seems to me there have been times when certain religions have been happy to walk hand in hand with science. Until....the two ways of thinking came into conflict. Is that inevitable? It seems to me that early religions were the first attempts at science--a way to explain a frightening and inexplicable world. As cultures become more sophisticated the break occurs, the schism between belief and proof. This is one reason I find history interesting.

You say that guilt is inherent. This is a question that certainly interests anthropologists as well as philosophers. How much of guilt is culturally inherited? There are some "sins" that seem fairly universal. Others not so much. Certainly the 10 commandments are not universal. 

I have not, in 53 years, been able to come to much certainty about any of the big philosophical questions you pose. But I have experienced a life that is exciting and challenging and definitely interesting as I continue to wrestle with these questions. So I think the quest is worthwhile. Not because I'll learn the answers. Because continuing to think about the questions makes me better in some way. Makes me think hard. Makes me question myself as well as others. Makes me not take things for granted. So, philosophy and literature and art and history continue to be invaluable to me because they are the tools with which I decipher my world. Keep at it.

 

 

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